Friday, 14 June 2013

Re: non-Unity flavours and Mir

On 13-06-14 11:04 AM, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> On Friday, June 14, 2013 03:54:32 PM Jonathan Riddell wrote:
>> Here's a discussion I half started as part of vUDS.
>>
>> The switch to Mir in Ubuntu seems pretty risky for the existance of
>> Kubuntu, I wonder if other flavours have the same probable problem.
>>
>> KWin dev has opinions on the subject
>> http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2013/05/mir-in-kubuntu/ From the
>> architecture section on that blog post:
>>
>> "Mir's architecture is centered around Unity. It is difficult to really
>> understand the architecture of Mir as the specification is so full of
>> buzz-words that I don't understand it [5]. From all I can see and
>> understand Unity Next is a combination of window manager and desktop
>> shell implemented on top of Mir. How exactly this is going to look
>> like I do not know. Anyway it does not fit our design of having
>> desktop shell and window manager separated and we do not know whether
>> Mir would support that. We also do not know whether Mir would allow
>> any other desktop shell except Unity Next, given that this is the main
>> target. Wayland on the other hand is designed to have more than one
>> compositor implementations. Using KWin as a session compositor is an
>> example in the spec."
>>
>> and on protocol
>>
>> "But it gets worse, the protocol between Mir server and Mir clients
>> is defined as not being stable. In fact it's promised that it will
>> break. That's a huge problem, I would even call it a showstopper....
>> Given that the protocol may change any time and given that the whole
>> thing is developed for the needs of Unity we have to expect that the
>> server libraries are not binary compatible or that old version of the
>> server libraries cannot talk with the latest client libraries"
>>
>> Canonical was going to port LightDM to Wayland but now does not plan
>> to so someone else would have to do this. KDE might be interested
>> but more likely will switch to SDDM.
>>
>> For Kubuntu the options are:
>> - Use Mir - infeasable as upstream can't support it as described above
>> - Use Wayland with packages from Debian and hope we can make those packages
>> live with Mir as best as possible
>> - End of Kubuntu
>>
>> The second options is the one I'm expecting. It's completely unknown
>> how much it means Kubuntu and other flavours will need to maintain X
>> and Wayland packages, hopefully not much (it's hardly our speciality)
>> and hopefully Debian and Ubuntu Desktop will support it enough.
>>
>> I don't think there's a public timeline for Mir so we don't know when
>> this will hit us, presumably in the next year.
>>
>> Other flavours I think are this:
>> Mythbuntu: not evaluated, hope to do so once NVideo and AMD provide drivers
>> Lubuntu: not evaluated, hope to use X and GTK
>> ubuntustudio: I've heard both that they use xfce based on xubuntu and
>> will follow them, and "aiming for users to choose whatever desktop
>> environment they want"
>>
>> Any other flavours got an opinions?
>>
>> Are there any misconceptions I have in the above?
>
> Given that mesa is going to be heavily patched to support Mir, I question the
> long term feasibility of supporting Wayland in Ubuntu.
>

How would adding a new backend to mesa result in it being "heavily
patched"? Why would adding a new backend to mesa affect the other
backends, including Wayland?

Marc.

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