Friday, 14 June 2013

Re: non-Unity flavours and Mir

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 5:33 PM, Scott Kitterman <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Friday, June 14, 2013 11:15:17 AM Marc Deslauriers wrote:
>> On 13-06-14 11:04 AM, Scott Kitterman wrote:
>> > On Friday, June 14, 2013 03:54:32 PM Jonathan Riddell wrote:
>> >> Here's a discussion I half started as part of vUDS.
>> >>
>> >> The switch to Mir in Ubuntu seems pretty risky for the existance of
>> >> Kubuntu, I wonder if other flavours have the same probable problem.
>> >>
>> >> KWin dev has opinions on the subject
>> >> http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2013/05/mir-in-kubuntu/ From the
>> >>
>> >> architecture section on that blog post:
>> >> "Mir's architecture is centered around Unity. It is difficult to really
>> >> understand the architecture of Mir as the specification is so full of
>> >> buzz-words that I don't understand it [5]. From all I can see and
>> >> understand Unity Next is a combination of window manager and desktop
>> >> shell implemented on top of Mir. How exactly this is going to look
>> >> like I do not know. Anyway it does not fit our design of having
>> >> desktop shell and window manager separated and we do not know whether
>> >> Mir would support that. We also do not know whether Mir would allow
>> >> any other desktop shell except Unity Next, given that this is the main
>> >> target. Wayland on the other hand is designed to have more than one
>> >> compositor implementations. Using KWin as a session compositor is an
>> >> example in the spec."
>> >>
>> >> and on protocol
>> >>
>> >> "But it gets worse, the protocol between Mir server and Mir clients
>> >> is defined as not being stable. In fact it's promised that it will
>> >> break. That's a huge problem, I would even call it a showstopper....
>> >> Given that the protocol may change any time and given that the whole
>> >> thing is developed for the needs of Unity we have to expect that the
>> >> server libraries are not binary compatible or that old version of the
>> >> server libraries cannot talk with the latest client libraries"
>> >>
>> >> Canonical was going to port LightDM to Wayland but now does not plan
>> >> to so someone else would have to do this. KDE might be interested
>> >> but more likely will switch to SDDM.
>> >>
>> >> For Kubuntu the options are:
>> >> - Use Mir - infeasable as upstream can't support it as described above
>> >> - Use Wayland with packages from Debian and hope we can make those
>> >> packages
>> >>
>> >> live with Mir as best as possible
>> >>
>> >> - End of Kubuntu
>> >>
>> >> The second options is the one I'm expecting. It's completely unknown
>> >> how much it means Kubuntu and other flavours will need to maintain X
>> >> and Wayland packages, hopefully not much (it's hardly our speciality)
>> >> and hopefully Debian and Ubuntu Desktop will support it enough.
>> >>
>> >> I don't think there's a public timeline for Mir so we don't know when
>> >> this will hit us, presumably in the next year.
>> >>
>> >> Other flavours I think are this:
>> >> Mythbuntu: not evaluated, hope to do so once NVideo and AMD provide
>> >> drivers
>> >> Lubuntu: not evaluated, hope to use X and GTK
>> >> ubuntustudio: I've heard both that they use xfce based on xubuntu and
>> >> will follow them, and "aiming for users to choose whatever desktop
>> >> environment they want"
>> >>
>> >> Any other flavours got an opinions?
>> >>
>> >> Are there any misconceptions I have in the above?
>> >
>> > Given that mesa is going to be heavily patched to support Mir, I question
>> > the long term feasibility of supporting Wayland in Ubuntu.
>>
>> How would adding a new backend to mesa result in it being "heavily
>> patched"? Why would adding a new backend to mesa affect the other
>> backends, including Wayland?
>
> Upstream kwin tells us they already see bug reports from Kubuntu users due to
> mesa changes to support Unity. I don't think it's just a new back end.
>

Do you have a link to the bug reports handy? We are happy to look at
them if they originate from the Mir-Mesa patches.

Thomas

> Scott K
>
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