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Hi Robie,
On 1/21/25 09:19 AM, Robie Basak wrote:
> I think it's about time that Ubuntu Developer realtime conversation
> moved from IRC to Matrix. What do you think? Can we reach a consensus on
> this topic?
>
> DO NOT SWITCH YET
>
> I can't force anyone not to switch immediately, but preferably either we
> all move or nobody moves to prevent further fragmentation. Please don't
> leave anyone out of conversations because they aren't lurking in both
> places. First let's discuss, and if we decide to move, then we can pick
> a date to move the "official" place for realtime Ubuntu developer
> conversation.
I completely agree with this. Until we reach a consensus, let's keep discussion on IRC.
That being said, rooms have already been established in the Ubuntu namespace. They're pretty rarely used as of right now:
- https://matrix.to/#/#devel:ubuntu.com
- https://matrix.to/#/#release:ubuntu.com
Both of those channels also have disclaimers in the topic warning that it is *not* the official channel.
They can always be disbanded if needed, and I don't really plan on modifying them much until we've reached a consensus. That being said, they've existed for months now.
As a side note, for Ubuntu Flavors, we *have* completely moved to Matrix already for discussion. The only reason #ubuntu-flavors is still established as an IRC channel is because I haven't found someone with the correct permissions to remove it completely.
Here's the official channel for Ubuntu Flavors: https://matrix.to/#/#flavors:ubuntu.com
> Matrix seems to be well established in the wider Ubuntu community now.
> Many thanks to all involved in making that happen[1][2][3]!
>
> I conducted a poll of Ubuntu Developers within Canonical in July 2024.
> Of those who answered, 10 were in favour of moving (including myself), 1
> was against, and 6 wanted further discussion. I didn't consider that
> number large enough to warrant pushing for a change immediately. I
> invited that "further discussion" but nothing seems to have happened, so
> I think it's time for a wider discussion with an aim to reach a decision
> now.
>
> # Making a decision
>
>> The poorest decision of all is no decision: clarity of direction has
>> value in itself...
>
>> A decision must still be made.
>
> Because of the fragmentation concern, I think it's important that we
> make a single, unified decision for all Ubuntu developers. Let's have a
> discussion period first, then ask the Technical Board to weigh the
> discussion and make that decision.
+1
> # What moving *means*
>
> "Official" communication, such as making requests of privileged Ubuntu
> developer teams, could be expected to be actioned if requested on the
> agreed platform only. Similarly, you can consider your social
> responsibility to other developers in relation to your work in Ubuntu
> development to be fulfilled if you are present on that platform[4]. And
> Canonical will follow in its requirement for its employed Ubuntu
> developers to be present on that agreed platform during their working
> hours.
>
> I'm specifically referring to #ubuntu-devel and #ubuntu-release to lead
> the pack. I suppose other miscellaneous Ubuntu development related
> channels could move at their own pace. Or are there any other specific
> channels that should move at the same time?
>
> Of course Ubuntu-related discussion happens in all kinds of different
> places. I'm not suggesting that any Ubuntu IRC channels be shut down;
> just that Ubuntu developer teams all make Matrix their primary place of
> realtime contact (should they have one).
I am in full support of this, +1.
> I think there are (at least) three groups whose needs we should think
> about:
>
> 1) Ubuntu developers who work for Canonical. We use Mattermost
> internally. We're used to the rich communications that it provides, such
> as threading, sync between multiple devices, Markdown formatting,
> integrated history and the ability to bring others into a conversation
> with history available to them. It's a tough sell to ask new Canonical
> employees to downgrade to IRC if they want to talk about Ubuntu
> development[5]. It's too easy to try and contact others about Ubuntu
> developers internally on Mattermost since many active Ubuntu developers
> are at Canonical. As a result, conversations that should be happening in
> public happen on private Mattermost all too often. People seem to have
> largely given up on pushing conversations to IRC. I think a richer
> alternative will help with this, and not moving away from IRC is
> thereful harmful.
From a purely community side on this, I've also had to ping people on IRC hoping they'd pass a message via Mattermost (with no way to confirm), due to lack of IRC presence.
> 2) New contributors. We always encourage more! What's going to be
> easiest for them to use: IRC or Matrix? What's the sort of interface and
> usability they expect, and to what extent are they provided? Again, I
> think we've reached the point that we're harming the project's future by
> losing potential participants by staying where we are.
Strong +1.
> 3) People who have been using IRC for many years. Of course you're used
> to what you do, and change is disruptive. There is certain to be
> functionality that isn't at parity on Matrix. But I think we must
> consider that the vast majority of potential participants aren't going
> to notice. The proportion of the future project who care about this is
> growing increasingly small, and therefore I again think that on balance
> the harm in not moving outweighs this consideration.
https://xkcd.com/1782/ <-- there will always be these people, and we should still value them just as much in the community.
I would support bridging the two with a strong nudge that Matrix is the only official platform (and removing IRC links publicly.)
I've also recently brought up the discussion about removing Quassel from the Lubuntu seed, which has drawn mixed opinions (generally along the lines of "I've been on IRC for so long that I'm having a hard time supporting this, but I have no reason to block it.")
In my opinion, it will hurt for some people, but it's ultimately the best move.
> My opinion is therefore that for the first two groups, times have
> changed to the point now that we're actually harming the project by not
> moving, while the third group continues to diminish. Therefore we should
> move.
>
> But if you have other points to raise, please do!
>
> # Collapsing #ubuntu-devel and #ubuntu-release into one
>
> Personally I don't think the existing split works very well.
> Conversations tend to stay in the channel they started, even if after a
> while thread drift takes it into the context of the other. So to keep in
> touch, one has two places to follow for no real reason, together with
> the various other non-realtime places.
>
> One argument I've heard to maintain a split is that privileged teams can
> sift through other conversations to find privileged team requests more
> easily. But Matrix has threads, so this together with keyword highlights
> should suffice, shouldn't it?
>
> Could we start perhaps by combining both #ubuntu-devel and
> #ubuntu-release into a single #devel:ubuntu.com, and split out if this
> doesn't work? I suggest this would be easier than than trying to merge
> them later.
I actually think that we might even split it out further, instead of combining rooms.
#ubuntu-release has tons of information about transitions, queue statuses, and pings to AAs or RT members with an item needing a poke. As it stands right now, #ubuntu-devel is more general than #ubuntu-release.
I think continuing to separate that discussion makes a lot of sense, and I would even be in favor of separating it further (maybe have a dedicated patch pilot room or something.)
> If you consider the timing of this email, then of course I have an
> ulterior motive here. But I think this is a change that was overdue
> already regardless of that.
>
> Please discuss, and once everyone involved has had an opportunity to
> discuss, I'll ask the Technical Board for a decision.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Robie
>
> [1]: https://ubuntu.com/community/communications/matrix
>
> [2]: https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/modern-communication-platforms-call-for-feedback/36763
>
> [3]: https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/modern-communication-platforms-matrix-testing/40313
>
> [4]: Although if someone exclusively contributes in non-realtime ways
> using other channels, I think that's fine, too.
>
> [5]:
>
> A recent conversation I had went a bit like this, all on Mattermost:
>
> $manager: $other_manager is asking about an important SRU for
> $topic. Please could you prioritise reviewing that today?
>
> $me: sure!
>
> <fails to find $topic in any SRU queue nor $other_manager on IRC>
>
> $me (to $other_manager): hi! $manager sent me. Where am I looking
> for this SRU for $topic?
>
> $other_manager: I'm not sure. Please ask $engineer.
>
> <fails to find $engineer on IRC>
>
> $me (to $engineer): I've been asked to review an important SRU for
> $topic but I can't find it in any queue. Where is it, please?
>
> $me: also, please can you join and continue this converation on IRC,
> since this converation should be in public?
>
> $engineer: Here's the SRU: $link. What's IRC?
>
> $me: ╯︵ ┻━┻
>
> I hope this helps to illustrate how challenging it is for
> Canonical-employed Ubuntu developers to move discussions to IRC when
> needed.
I'm glad you brought this up, thanks!
--
Simon Quigley
simon@tsimonq2.net
@tsimonq2:ubuntu.com on Matrix
tsimonq2 on LiberaChat and OFTC
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